S5E7: Deborah Wicks La Puma
In this episode, Hayley and Amy talk with composer and music director Deborah Wicks La Puma about the critical importance of Theatre for Young Audiences (TYA), championing women musicians and writers, building pipelines to support young people of all backgrounds falling in love with theatre, and more. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Guest: Deborah Wicks La Puma
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
She Persisted by Chelsea Clinton
Center for Scholars and Storytellers at UCLA
Trailblazers of the Week:
Joy Huerta - Real Women Have Curves
Guest Bio:
Composer and music director Deborah Wicks La Puma (she/her) is one of the most produced Theatre for Young Audiences artists working today. Popular titles include Ella Enchanted (based on the book by Gail Carson Levine) with Karen Zacarías, She Persisted (based on the book by Chelsea Clinton) with Adam Tobin, and Elephant and Piggy’s We Are in a Play and Don't Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus with bestselling children’s author Mo Willems. With Willems, she also created the animated movie Naked Mole Rats Getting Dressed: The Underground Rock Experience and the upcoming animated series Unlimited Squirrels.
She has music directed at theaters across the country, including the Guthrie, Oregon Shakespeare Festival, South Coast Repertory, La Jolla Playhouse, and the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts. Honors include the Harold Oaks Award for Sustained Excellence in TYA, an off-Broadway Alliance Award for Best Family Musical, two Parents’ Choice Awards, and a Helen Hayes Award for Outstanding Musical Adaptation. A proud Mexican American and “Navy brat” who grew up in Brazil, Portugal, and California, La Puma is a member of TYA/USA, ASCAP, and the Dramatists Guild.
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello beautiful people, and welcome back to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cozy beverage and join us as we talk to women and gender-expansive folks about their experiences at the intersection of womanhood and theatre.
Hayley: On the pod, we cultivate open conversations across identities and professional roles…
Amy: We look for opportunities to support one another in growing our careers…
Hayley: And we pool our collective wisdom to build the equitable theatrical spaces of the future.
(Music)
Amy: Hello, hello, beautiful people. Hi Hayley! How are you?
Hayley: Hey! I'm doing well. How are you doing?
Amy: I am good. It's really good to see your face, yay.
Hayley: It’s great to see your face!
Amy: Shall we check in and talk some Roses and Thorns? What are your Rose and Thorn this week?
Hayley: My Rose this week is that we just came off of a really exciting and productive Women & Theatre retreat.
Amy: Yeah, we did!
Hayley: This is something that Amy and I have been doing for the last few years as a way for us to get away and brainstorm and re-envision and, like, really connect to why we're making this project and how we can make it the best that it can be and what we really want it to be. So, it was a lot of fun. In addition to doing some really exciting and productive work for the project, we also had some really wonderful friend time and it was super fun. So that's my Rose.
And for my Thorn… I'm in a transient moment in my life right now. Coming back from spending a lot of time in Canada, which was glorious and wonderful in so many ways. Getting to spend time with my spouse and make some really exciting art. But it's just really hard for me in these, like, moments of transition to go from one life to a different life. My life is very different in New York than it is when I'm in Toronto. And so I'm just, like, struggling to get back into my habits, back into my routines. The growth pain and transient pain of trying to figure that out. I'm really grateful for my life, it's wonderful. It's just, like, something that is hard. So those are my Roses and Thorns. How about you, Amy?
Amy: Yeah, multiple things are true at once. My Rose and Thorn are the same this week, I think, which is that I have upcoming deadlines for both of my shows. I have a writer reading coming up for CYCLES next weekend. And then I am working toward an exciting developmental reading process for To the Lighthouse in July. And I'm so excited about both of those things, and I'm so excited about having that deadline and the amount of work that's getting done on both shows right now. It's really wonderful, and I'm so proud of both of them and of the work I'm doing with my collaborators, Kat and Julie. And also, it's a lot of work and there are a lot of other things calling for my time. And yeah, it's a challenge. It's a wonderful, wonderful challenge. And sometimes, at moments it's a bit thorny too.
Hayley: That’s real, that’s real. I think that in this industry, we can feel a little bit guilty talking about the real stuff that's hard. Because we're just so grateful to have a development opportunity, to be working, whatever it is. We can be grateful to be in a development process, to be working. And we can still feel that things are hard, and both things can be true. And I think it's just important to keep perspective. But yeah, I love that both of those things are true for you.
Amy: Yay! Me too. Cool! Well, I am so excited to talk to our guest today. Hayley knows I am nerding out about this one, listeners.
Hayley: Amy’s been pumped about this for weeks.
Amy: I'm so excited. Today, we're talking to Deborah Wicks La Puma, who is the composer and music director behind musical adaptations of Mo Willems’ work for Theatre for Young Audiences. And Mo Willems, if you are not familiar, is like, the hot children's book author, whose books are - I can't even tell you how well thumbed those books are in my house, in my daughter's group of friends. Mo Willems’ books are delightful. The humor is incredible. The characters are spot on. They are - you know, they're children's books, they're simple, they're fun, they have good life lessons, and Deborah has worked hand-in-hand with Mo Willems to musicalize them.
So it's like, marrying all the things I love and I'm so, so excited to meet her and hear about her journey of doing that.
Hayley: Yeah, so all you arts educators out there, all of you mamas who might be familiar with these books, composers who are interested in writing TYA material… This episode is for you.
Amy: This one's for you! Listen up!
Hayley: We’re thrilled to speak to Deborah. Let's get going.
Amy: Let's do it.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Composer and music director Deborah Wicks La Puma is one of the most produced Theatre for Young Audiences artists working today. Popular titles include Ella Enchanted (based on the book by Gail Carson Levine) with Karen Zacarías, She Persisted (based on the book by Chelsea Clinton) with Adam Tobin, and Elephant and Piggy’s We Are in a Play and Don't Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus with bestselling children’s author Mo Willems. With Willems, she also created the animated movie Naked Mole Rats Getting Dressed: The Underground Rock Experience and the upcoming animated series Unlimited Squirrels.
She has music directed at theatres across the country, including the Guthrie, Oregon Shakespeare Festival, South Coast Repertory, La Jolla Playhouse, and the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts. Honors include the Harold Oaks Award for Sustained Excellence in TYA, an off-Broadway Alliance Award for Best Family Musical, two Parents’ Choice Awards, and a Helen Hayes Award for Outstanding Musical Adaptation. A proud Mexican American and “Navy brat” who grew up in Brazil, Portugal, and California, La Puma is a member of TYA/USA, ASCAP, and the Dramatists Guild.
Amy: Hello, beautiful people! We are here today with composer and music director Deborah Wicks La Puma. Deborah, thank you so much for being here with us.
Deborah: Hello! I'm so excited that you brought me on. Happy to talk with you today.
Amy: Fabulous. Deborah, can you start us off by sharing your pronouns and telling us a little bit about what you do in theatre?
Deborah: Sure. My name is Deborah Wicks La Puma. I use she/her pronouns. And I'm calling in from sunny Southern California, the ancestral lands of the Tongva people. And what I love to do in my day job is be a TYA (Theatre for Young Audiences) composer, music director, arranger… Really, whatever anyone will hire me to do, I'm on board for TYA.
Hayley: Love that.
Amy: Love it.
Hayley: Amazing. What's inspiring you right now, Deborah? What's lighting you up?
Deborah: What I love is that the world of TYA is so connected to young people, and young people are really changing right now. And I think theatre is such an important part of creating good humans and getting them connected with each other. And there's so much noise out there, there’s so many screens out there, and theatre is a time where we communally come together, connect as a people. You know, we get our heartbeats and our breathing together. It's such a basic and wonderful human gift. And so, I love that we're still creating theatre, and specifically for young people, right? Because they need to hear about topics that interest them. They need to be heard, they need to feel like they're being heard and not talked down to.
I wrote a musical called She Persisted, based on the Chelsea Clinton book about 13 American women who changed the world. And we had the opportunity to do that in Washington, DC, at Adventure Theatre. And so, one of the seven women that's portrayed in the musical is Sonia Sotomayor, Justice Sotomayor. And she actually came to see the show…
Hayley: Oh my god!
Deborah: …which, you know, blew everyone's mind. It was so amazing. She is a huge champion of theatre as well, and theatre for young people. So she came to see the show, and you know, one of the things that she told the cast was, “Yes, my job is important, but your job is just as important because you're talking to and inspiring the future of this country.” So I mean, as you can tell, I'm just like, I have drunk the Kool-Aid on TYA and how important it is. And I believe it. I do believe it.
Amy: I love it. I love that passion. It emanates off of you. That story is also so… like, makes my heart so happy personally, because my daughter and I love that book, She Persisted. When she was little, we read it all the time. And I grew up in DC, going to Adventure Theatre as a child. So it's so, so cool to hear about that work happening. Like, if I was a child and I went to the theatre, and one of the stars of one of my favorite books came to life in front of me, I don't even know what I would do. That's so special.
Deborah: Yeah. Yeah, like, all the actresses afterwards, laying on the ground going, “Oh my god, what just happened? My brain is exploding.” Like it was just, it was so beautiful. What a remarkable woman. And she came because the lead actress wrote her a letter, the actress who portrays her, Victoria Gomez - who’s incredible by the way, you're gonna see her on Broadway any minute now.
Hayley: Love it.
Deborah: But she wrote a letter specifically to Sonia, saying, “You are an inspiration to me, to my mother who came to this country.” And I just love these connections that we make, that we can make through theatre. So.
Hayley: Wow, fabulous.
Amy: Amazing.
Hayley: Well, Deborah, I'm excited to get into She Persisted and all of your other work a little bit deeper in a minute. But first, before we dive in fully, we have a little flash round of questions for you to get us warmed up and excited. So, to get us started…
Deborah: Okay, I’ll try not to get stressed out.
Amy: No, not stressful, just fun.
Hayley: Yeah, this is like “Don’t think, just speak” kinds of questions.
Deborah: Okay.
Hayley: So the first question is: If you were an animal, what would you be?
Deborah: I would be an otter.
Hayley: Ooh, love.
Deborah: I love otters. They're very playful, they're very active, and they live in water and on land, so I love them.
Amy: Love that. What is your weirdest hobby?
Deborah: Hmm. What is my weirdest hobby? Gosh. I love biking. Yeah, I bike everywhere I go. We only own one car between my husband and I, so I bike everywhere.
Hayley: Love it.
Deborah: I don’t know if that’s weird though.
Hayley: I like it.
Amy: Love it.
Hayley: What quote or mantra is speaking to you right now?
Deborah: A mantra that I've had for a long time, which is: Done is beautiful.
And how it works is that, you know, I think as artists, we often have perfectionist tendencies and overthinking tendencies.
Hayley: Yes.
Deborah: And so, this is something that we came up with as a family, also for our children, for our three daughters. That you'd be working on a project, whatever that is, and you're like, “Is it right? I, ugh!...” And so finally, it’s just “Done is beautiful.” Sometimes you just have to say, “I've done the work, I've done the time, and now I'm stepping away, and whatever it is, it is what it is.” And it's very, it’s very useful! To let go.
Hayley: Yeah, 100%.
Amy: Yeah, and hard. Yeah.
Deborah: Yeah. Actually, I'm remembering that the origin of that phrase was my husband and I working at Interlochen Arts Camp when we were in college and building sets and painting sets. I think that’s where it all originated from, because, you know, set building and you've got a thousand things to do … It’s like, “That is gonna work.” Done is beautiful.
Amy: Great.
Hayley: Love it.
Amy: Fantastic. Deborah, what is your favorite musical?
Deborah: A musical that constantly inspires me is actually Tommy, by The Who, and… I love rock music, I'm a child of the 80s, and so like, Jesus Christ Superstar was the first musical I really interacted with. And then Tommy - what I love about it is the epicness that rock brings to that story. Like, the story is actually quite small, but that music is operatic in its scope. And so, to me, it's about - we’re telling a story, we're exploding it into this huge epic feel of drama and operatic proportions, and we're using rock… a pop - you know, not built for theater - music, but using it in kind of a new and innovative way.
So because of that, I've tried to look in my own work, of like, what are the genres that are less used that can be used for dramatic effect? And I love lots of different music. You know, I grew up all over the world. My dad was in the Navy, so I'm a Navy brat. So I grew up in Brazil, in Portugal, in Mexico, and in California. So lots of different musical influences.
And so, for example, I've written a musical based on Shakespeare, Winter's Tale, with a whole Mexican folk genre of music. And I did that research, and I got to dive in and find out how it ticks and then use Mexican folk music to tell the Shakespearean story. Which maybe seems less innovative now, but at the time, no one was doing it. And I'm like, “Dude, this music is amazing. We need to do this!”
And then, I also was able to write a TYA piece where we adapted Oliver Twist to Rio de Janeiro. And sort of taking that Dickensian idea of the rich and the poor and the division of like, if you're rich, does that make you good? If you're poor, does that make you bad? And talk about those dynamics. But also for me, being able to go back to my childhood, that I grew up in Rio, and use Brazilian styles of music, so samba and bossa nova. And again, dive into that music, take what makes it tick, translate it into a musical theatre form. So that just, I love that. I love that stuff.
Amy: Cool.
Hayley: Love it. Speaking of all of these different types of music, what is your song of the moment right now, Deborah?
Deborah: The irony is I don't listen to music to relax, because…
Amy: Well, it's work, right?
Deborah: …music is work, right! If I listen to a song, I'm analyzing it. I'm thinking about it. I will say, one of my greatest joys is listening to whatever my children are listening to. They're the gateway. We'll drive in the car, and my daughter will just start playing songs for me. So, you know, she played, like, “Hot to Go” or something and I'm like, that's an amazing song. I also found, what's that other big song that she has? “Pink Pony Club”?
Amy: Oh yeah, that's huge.
Deborah: I went into a dive on Spotify, and I found Bardcore, which is like medieval instruments playing pop songs, and I found a medieval version of “Pink Pony Club”. Hilarious, amazing, sung really beautifully.
Hayley: I'm obsessed with that. That's awesome.
Deborah: So yeah, I guess that would be the song, I would say, that was lighting up my life right now.
Amy: That's amazing.
Hayley: Medieval “Pink Pony Club”.
Amy: I think that's my favorite answer anyone's had to that question. That's incredible.
Hayley: It's really good.
Deborah: Also they have a version of “We Didn't [Start] the Fire”, the Billy Joel song.
Hayley: Oh, love.
Deborah: …and it's all like Charlemagne and Pope Avignon.
Amy: That's so funny.
Deborah: And they rewrote the lyrics so it fits this medieval…
Amy: Wow.
Deborah: It's brilliant.
Hayley: Wow.
Deborah: So there you go.
Hayley: Thank you for that.
Amy: So good. Bardcore, amazing.
Hayley: Great.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: So Deborah, you dropped a couple of gems about your childhood, and I'm so curious. How did you come into musical theatre and the work you're doing now?
Deborah: So I never got to do a musical until I got to college. Because, again, I grew up all over the world, and musical theatre is - I think it's changed now - but in the 80s, in the 70s, it was not as widespread as it is now. And so, it was when I first got to college. I had listened to Jesus Christ Superstar, because that was just a pop record and I had loved it. And then when I got to college, that was the first musical they did my freshman year. And so I auditioned for it, and I got to be in the ensemble, and I just, I loved it so much. I fell really, really hard.
In fact, there was a moment - you know, in Jesus Christ Superstar, there's a moment where they're whipping Jesus, right? And there's a countdown, they’re like, “30 lashes!”, and you go, “30, 29…”, and the whole ensemble's supposed to do it. And the director had to give me this note, he's like, “Debbie, stop smiling. This isn't a happy thing.” And I'm like, “I'm just so happy to be here! I'm having such a great time. I can't help it, even in this moment!”
So after that, I was like, “This is what I wanna do.” And I had already been trying to become a rock musician, a rock star. So I had a terrible rock band - no, I won't say a terrible rock band, because my dear friends that were in it, we were doing our best. Our name was Technical Difficulty. Every time we tried to change our name to something cooler, like, an amp would blow or something. So we're like, just Technical Difficulty. That's who we are.
And so that was my aspiration going into college, like, I'm gonna be a rock star. And then I realized, A) I'm really not that cool. And then B) it's like, musical theatre… You can be a rock star in your own way, right? You can have rock and you can have classical music, 'cause I was already a classically trained pianist, so I'd been working on that forever. So I already had multiple musical loves in my heart, and musical theatre was a way to be able to embrace all those sides of my identity.
Amy: Cool.
Hayley: I love that.
Amy: That's wonderful. Can you tell us a bit about what you're working on creatively at the moment?
Deborah: Well, right now, I am working on a crazy show. It's not crazy, except that the process of it is super, super unique. So I've written a number of shows with Mo Willems, the very wonderful children's book author of Don't Let The Pigeon Drive The Bus and Elephant and Piggie’s We Are In a Play. Well, seven beautiful and strong theatres have come together to co-commission a holiday musical based on using the Mo Willems characters. So right now, we are finishing our rehearsal draft for a holiday musical that includes - we call it the “Avengers of the Mo Willems Universe” - so it includes Pigeon and Elephant and Piggie and Unlimited Squirrels. So three different book series all together, all in this holiday musical.
And the crazy thing about it is - you know, usually when you have a co-commission, you start with one theatre, and then you learn things, and then you have the second production subsequently. Well, because it's a holiday show, they are all premiering at the same time. So, six out of the seven theatres are premiering the show at the same time, going into rehearsal at the same time.
And I - honestly, I have no idea how that’s gonna work. I have never done anything like this before. So, you know, we're trying to set up good communication between all the theatres, and like, one person who will take all the notes and funnel that to us, the writers, so that we're not hearing, you know, seven different voices in our head.
And all the productions are different. With TYA, you really get a wide range of producing organizations. So for example, one of the wonderful theatres is First Stage, which uses adult professional Equity actors with youth performers. So they have very expandable casts. So with First Stage, their cast is gonna be some adult performers playing Elephant, Piggie, Pigeon. And then we have Unlimited Squirrels, and they're really going with the “Unlimited” Squirrels.
Hayley: That sounds like the name of a different rock band, Deborah. Unlimited Squirrels. I'm just saying.
Amy: Definitely.
Deborah: Yeah, you know what? Not bad.
So I'm writing a piece, knowing that the ensemble moments could have up to 40 members singing it who are youth actors, right? So mostly treble, no bass singers, 'cause they're kids.
And then, we're also having… Another one of the beautiful theatres is Seattle Children's Theatre. And they go with small, all-professional casts. So there, we're looking at, like, a seven-person cast. And so the trick there is we have to figure out all the double casting to tell the story of these Unlimited Squirrels, where we have multiple squirrels. So people are gonna be playing multiple parts. Do we have enough transition music for them to go off and put on their new squirrel hat or whatever it is? So these are the problem solves that we're gonna have to do literally on the fly, and god help us. So hopefully it all works out.
Hayley: Wow. Yes. Seven is huge.
Amy: That's a lot.
Deborah: It’s a lot.
Hayley: Even doing that at at two theaters would be a lot, I feel like, with two different casts.
Deborah: Yeah, it’s a bit of a communication…
Amy: It sounds wild.
Hayley: Yeah.
Deborah: Yeah.
Amy: And exciting.
Deborah: It's very - I mean, it is really exciting. Slightly terrifying.
Amy: Yeah!
Hayley: Totally.
Deborah: The other thing that I found writing this piece, which I've never done before, which is I'm basically writing somewhat of a sequel. You know, who gets the chance to write a musical and then kind of write a sequel? In my world, does not happen. But there's already two other musicals that exist out there that many of the people that come see this will be familiar with. So to me, it's a question of like, how many Easter eggs do we put in there for people who know the musicals? You know, little themes do we pop in there, do we bring back little jokes, or things like that? And that's really a new experience for me, which is fun. So we're constantly trying to tread that line of like, “This is clever” or “This is cheap.” We don’t know. And maybe the six different theatres at the same time will tell us.
Hayley: Definitely, yeah.
Amy: Wow.
Hayley: I think you'll be able to get some feedback on that. That is an interesting challenge though. It's not something we do in theatre a lot, trying to make it a piece that stands alone and then also speaks to these other musicals that are out there. Yeah, interesting.
Deborah: Right. Usually, you know, we’re worried about being true to the book or the source material we’re adapting.
Hayley: Totally.
Deborah: But in this case, we have multiple source materials. We not only have the original books, which people are definitely gonna wanna see what they love about the book, and then we have these other musicals too.
Hayley: Yeah, so how are you navigating that, Deborah? Like, what's that process been like?
Deborah: Well, I think where we came down with it was no full-on reprises of things, but again, in the underscoring, in little thematic material, transitions, things like that - that that's where we're sprinkling in these moments. A couple of lines, a couple of jokes that might resonate with what happened before.
One of the things that's interesting about it - obviously, the seven theatres that commissioned it, they're Mo Willems fans. They probably produced Elephant and Piggie and Don't Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus. So they already have actors that they've worked with who have played these characters. And so, one of the choices we made was to make sure that you could use the same actor, right? So I wrote Pigeon originally as a baritenor. So I'm making sure that in this show, it's the same kind of vocal range, and same thing for Elephant and Piggie. So that if you want, you could rehire those actors who already know these characters really well, who - the audiences already see them as these characters. So that's fun.
Amy: Yeah, that's really smart.
Hayley: Deborah, how would you define the difference between writing for young audiences versus writing for adults?
Deborah: Yeah. People ask me, what's the difference between writing for adults and kids? And I have written for both. And the answer is it's really not that different. It's just a matter of - okay, there's a different amount of time, right? TYA is usually about 60 minutes long.
But it can cover the spectrum of human experience, from deep grief, great joy, all of those things. But usually, it's surrounding a young person's perspective or some experience that a young person can relate with. TYA shows, they play directly to children's questioning who they're gonna be, where they're going, how they fit into the world. And so, a great musical for kids can build dreams, inspire empathy, and make the vulnerable ones feel seen. So that's what we're really trying to do.
Hayley: It's funny, you describe those things, and I'm like, “That's what I love, as an adult who goes to see theatre.” So that’s great.
Deborah: Right! I mean, and when you're creating a TYA piece, it's not like you're saying, “This is just for kids, this isn't for adults.” Ideally, I love to go to see TYA too, because it's hopeful, energetic writing.
I feel like the difference between TYA and adult theatre is often: Do you lead with hope? Right? Because many adult pieces, it just leaves with, “The world is crap. Isn't it terrible?” Right? That's too bad. And TYA, you know, you can't do that. You can't do that. And I never wanna do that, even in my adult pieces, right?
I want to build hope. I want theatre to bring people together and build that connection. But one of the many reasons why I love it so much is also that efficiency, right? If you have an adult piece, you've got 2 hours, maybe 2.5 hours, to tell a story. In TYA, you've got 60 minutes. And so you have to do the exact same arc - beginning, middle, end, character development, song development, themes - you have to do it all in 60 minutes. So it is incredibly efficient.
And I love that beauty. I like to describe it as like the bonsai tree of theatre, where you take the giant, mighty oak, but you just reduce it down, and you keep all of those characteristics, but you make it into this beautiful miniature, so that's the way I like to think of it. It really demands clarity and precision.
And the audiences are completely honest, right? Adults will be polite, and kids will not be polite. They will get bored. They will start asking, “When can I go to the bathroom?” They will start shuffling with their programs. But because of that, like, I've now learned to write - I'm always thinking about the wiggly kid in the audience. And are they wiggling because they're uncomfortable, ‘cause the moment is filled with tension? Are they wiggling because two people are singing about how they love each other, and that's kind of like, “Ooooooh” and they have a huge reaction to that? Or is it, “Oh my gosh, we didn't need that second verse on a slow ballad”? I now have this rule of like, you can only have a ballad for a maximum of one minute. You know, you gotta keep things moving, people.
They like to bounce in their seats and, you know, that's a great challenge. It's a great parameter to kind of set for yourself. And so when we're creating pieces and we're going through the development, the workshops, and even the preview process, that's what we're looking at. Where are we losing the kids? Is it because they're confused about what's happening? Have we lost the clarity? Is it because a character's going on too long and we already have that information? So they're like, “Got it. Mom is sad. Great. Let's move on.” You know? That's the challenges and the joys of working in TYA versus adult theatre. Where you have the same challenges, I'm gonna say. You do have the same challenges, but maybe not the super honest feedback…
Hayley: That's exactly what I was thinking, I was like…
Amy: Yeah.
Hayley: …the clarity, like, are we losing… Yeah, it’s the feedback. That’s great.
Amy: Cool.
(Musical transition)
Amy: I'd love to shift gears for a little bit and talk about womanhood. Deborah, I know that you, in addition to being a champion for TYA, you're also a big champion for women musicians and writers, which we love. And I'd love to hear about how womanhood fits into your identity and how it fits into your theatrical work.
Deborah: Yeah. I really got into writing musicals because when I started doing musicals in college, I recognized that there were not enough roles for women. You know, my first musical was Jesus Christ Superstar.
Amy: There you go.
Deborah: There’s like one female role, and then they did Evita. There's like one female role, and then one other woman gets a solo, and I'm like, “F this. This is terrible.” So I'm gonna write some shows where women not only have a role, but are really a part of it.
So my first, my honors thesis in college was doing an adaptation of the book of Genesis and Adam and Eve. And so I chose to make God a woman. Because yes, right?
Hayley: Love it. You were ahead of the curve, Deborah. God is a woman!
Deborah: I mean, yeah. Right? So it's like, why not? So that's where I started, and every single piece that I create, I’m always aware of, like, is there a gender equity in the cast? Can there be even more, can we highlight even more? Because let's face it, even in the auditions out there, there are so many women out there, performers who are doing the work, incredibly talented, incredibly trained, and they're fighting for not a lot of roles, not the same amount of roles. So I try and do that with all of my shows. I'm very excited that She Persisted, we decided to do with an all-female cast.
And now, I’m working with a group called Maestra Music, which I also am a big champion of. Maestra Music helps to support women in musical theatre. They have a mentorship program. So I've been working with some wonderful up-and-coming composers and lyricists and trying to guide them in that process of how musicals work.
The other place where I’ve noticed a real gender discrepancy is in pits, in orchestra pits everywhere. I mean, even in classical music, for sure, but in musical theatre. And so now, I've noticed, even as I go in and work with… And let's face it, there are very few theatres who can afford to have live music, but when they can afford to have live music, I try to ask them to really see: Are there women who could also fill these roles? I know you got your usual dudes that you go to. I mean, and everyone does. I have my usual dudes, and I love them. But yeah, there's probably some up-and-coming dudettes that you could go to who need that training also.
And so even my three daughters, I trained them up and they have all played in pits, and they love it. 'Cause playing in an orchestra pit, just FYI, is the most fun you will ever have. 'Cause you're creating music, it's dynamic music, it stops and starts. It's really challenging in a great way. And then you get the goofiness of the actors. You can make fun of the actors. They'll never hear it. It's great. Like, there's this whole other micro world down in that pit. And musicians are just goofy, fun, nerdy people. Just like actors, but different.
I will say that as a woman, you know, I've always been really proud of the fact that I'm one of the few women composers out there. But the biggest challenge for me as a composer was that I am a mother of three daughters, and so just trying to keep work going, even as I'm trying to juggle being a mom and trying to be the best mom that I can. So that meant finding those moments to do my work around everything else in life, right?
So, God bless my husband, he has a very normal job and a steady paycheck. So I'm on board to pick up the kids from school, to drop them off, to go to the teacher-parent conference, all those things that come with parenthood. And then - oh, by the way, you have to write a song today. You've got two hours worth of daycare. Go.
So the great challenge of that is you don't have time to overthink it, right? That “Done is beautiful” comes back, which is, I have two hours to write this song. That is all I have. I will finish it, and that will be it. And in some ways, I think I write better because of that, and it's really taught me to be incredibly efficient with my writing and not overthink it too much. And so writer's block is not an option when you're a mom, right? You just don't have the time.
So, talking about women in theatre, the gender gap between male and female composers in the theatre is still huge. And in Theatre for Young Audiences, women make up only about 30% of all the playwrights and composers for the last 10 years. The Center for Scholars and Storytellers, they do a great job gathering data to help understand where the media is in gender and diversity and how it's impacting children. So one of the recent findings was about the importance of original content in TYA. In the 2019 season, 90% of the most popular titles were adapted titles, but original content, 5%, had the most diverse and equitable creative teams in terms of race and gender.
So - I mean, I think you see this playing off in a lot of areas of theatre. I mean, especially now, right? I just went to a TYA conference that happened the week after half of these theatres got their NEA funding pulled. Everyone is in shock. Everyone is trying to figure out: How are we gonna stay afloat? And so they're trying to survive, and when they're picking their season, they're looking at: What do we need to do to make sure we sell tickets, that we stay afloat? Even if their heart is completely, like, “We want original content, we want more diverse content, we wanna work with new people. You know, who are those young women and people of color that we can work with?” But they also just need to make sure that they're around to do that work.
That is what the conversation in TYA, as I'm sure in all theatre, is at this point, of how do you balance what you truly care about and knowing what the industry needs with, “But yes, in order to do our work, we also still need to be able to pay people.”
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: Yeah, you said it.
Deborah: And sell tickets!
Hayley: Amy and I were just having a conversation about this the other day about regional theatres, you know, doing the same shows over and over again that have, like, sold tickets in the past. I mean, this is why you see shows like Jersey Boys or Million Dollar Quartet or whatever happening all over the country. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those shows. They're great shows and they sell for a reason, but, you know, it's shows with a bunch of white dudes about a bunch of white dudes doing white dude things. You know, for the most part, right?
Deborah: Right!
Hayley: So I think, I do think that there's, you know, this historic thinking of, like, it's an either/or. It comes with a lot of risk, but I feel like people are hungry for new stories and hungry for new voices. And so, you know, it is risky. And I hope that this is a moment where we can come together collectively and prove, like, actually this stuff is, this does sell. Like, new original content sells. New voices sells. I see this sort of like binary thing, of “We either need to make money and sell tickets or we need to do the right thing.” And I just, I'm hoping to see a direction of, like, “Doing the right thing is actually going to sell tickets.” And some innovative thinking, and some thought leaders kind of stepping forward and saying, “Yes, like, we're gonna take the risk and try that and see what happens. We'll see. I don't know, but that’s my hope.
Amy: Yeah. Well, and to your earlier point, Deborah, I mean, talking about the impact of TYA on young people - like, I feel very strongly… I'm raising a child in New York City, and we've got so much amazing diversity here. And I love that she gets to see that reflected in her classroom and in her community and in the theatre that she goes to. And I know that's not the case for children all around the country. And the more that we can introduce children to people who are different from them, right? Especially when they're living in homogenous communities. It's so important for raising the future population of this country. It's so important.
Deborah: Yeah. I mean, I agree 1000%. And you know, in the last census, 50% of young people under 18 are people of color. 50%. So that is the community that we're serving. So I feel like TYA has done a great job of making sure that diversity is represented on stage. So with the actors that you see, that they make sure that it represents the communities that they serve, that kids see people that look like them up on the stage. Where we're still behind is backstage. That's where we still need to bring people up, and really, that work is being done in educational theatre programs everywhere, right? Are they outreaching to different communities that wouldn't necessarily sign up for a musical theatre summer camp and saying, “Come and take this musical theatre summer camp and you'll love theatre. You'll fall in love just like the rest of us, and you'll keep coming back and we will welcome you into it.”
So to me, that's where it really starts is kids…
Hayley: Yeah. It's like a whole pipeline and trickle-down effect there.
Amy: Yeah.
Deborah: It’s a pipeline! And if they become theatre artists or not, it doesn't matter. They also become theatre lovers. And so they're the ones who are gonna be going to the theater. They're gonna be the ones who want to see those stories that represent themselves. So that's where it starts.
Hayley/Amy: Absolutely./Yeah.
Deborah: God bless education directors all around the country.
Amy: Amen.
Hayley: Totally. Well we're coming up on the hour, and we wanna be respectful of your time, Deborah. So before we go away today - there's so much more we could, like, we could keep talking to you forever.
Amy: So much more!
Hayley: There's so much to get into. But I wanna ask you: What are you most proud of in your life and in your work so far?
Deborah: It's a great question.
I am really proud of the work I've been able to create with really amazing collaborators. I've had the joy of working with multiple collaborators, and again, creating work that I feel brings diversity to the stage, brings new and interesting stories, and helps bring kids and families together in that beautiful community of theatre.
So I know that when were those times as a mother when I wasn't able to be there for my kids, when I wasn't able to pick them up or I might've missed a concert or something like that, I know that my kids appreciate what I was doing and why I was doing it. And so they know that even if we made those sacrifices, it was for this thing that I'm passionate about and that they recognize has value.
Hayley: You've been such a wonderful guest. Thank you so much for being here with us. We are so grateful that you shared your wisdom with us and our listeners. Before we run, could you let our friends who are listening know where they can find you on the internet?
Deborah: So I have a lovely website, which is www.crunchynotes.com.
Hayley: Ooh, crunchy notes!
Deborah: As in music you can sink your teeth into.
Hayley: Love it.
Deborah: And that shows all of the musicals I've created, and of course, celebrates all the amazing collaborators that I've worked with on that. I also have an Instagram handle. My Instagram is @dwlapuma.
Hayley: Thank you so much, Deborah. This was such a delight. We're so grateful that you shared your hour with us.
Amy: It's such a joy to meet you. Thank you.
Deborah: You’re so welcome. Great to meet you too. Blessings on all of you. Thank you, ladies.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Wow. I am so glad that we got to talk to Deborah. I know you've been buzzing about this for so long, but I didn't know what was coming for me. That was really good.
Amy: Yeah. Oh my gosh. So fun. What a great interview!
Hayley: Yeah. I think the thing that stands out for me the most is this “Done is beautiful” thing, which was a theme throughout the episode.
Amy: I need that in my life.
Hayley: I need it too.
Amy: Yeah.
Hayley: I think there’s a lot of folks listening who might need that. I've been in a place lately of a lot of heaviness and feeling really hard on myself, and I think that “Done is beautiful” is such a beautiful mantra to help work through some of that, like, sticky icky stuff when you're having a hard time just finishing the thing and not judging yourself. Yeah, so I needed that, and I'm gonna take that into my week. How about you? What's your big takeaway from today?
Amy: Absolutely. Yeah, done is beautiful. Another thing that really stood out to me from this interview is the idea of theatre as a means of teaching our young people. Which, like, that's not a new idea. Yes, theatre is part of our culture, and it is how we teach our young people how to be humans and how to be humans in community with other humans.
And I think, in this particular moment where funding is being cut and where there are a lot of hard conversations happening about the value of art to our society, I feel like art is kind of being pitted against other public priorities. And, you know, artists too, we often fall into the trap of being like, “Well, it's just theatre. It's just, you know, it's light, it's fluffy, it's fun.” But it's not, it's so important. And it's so integral to how we build a functioning society and a sustainable functioning society that lives into the future. That was a big takeaway for me from this interview.
Hayley: Yeah, and it's a place where we still gather and that that's, like, at the bedrock of what we're doing. That's something I was thinking about over the weekend. I had a beautiful park day with my bestie, and I was looking around and seeing all these people gathered. I said this to her, I was like, “We’ve been doing this for all of human history, like, gathering in a place to enjoy the sunshine,” in this case.
This applies to theatre too. It's a place where we've been gathering since the beginning of time to tell stories. And I just think it's fundamental to who we are as human beings. And it's easy to think it's frivolous. But at the end of the day, it's one of the few places where we can still have an experience as a community with people that we know and love and people we've never met before, and share a beautiful experience with strangers. And I think that that's so rare these days.
Amy: It's so important.
Hayley: And that’s special and important to remind us how to share space, how to like, be a community member, be a villager, all those things.
Amy: Yeah. All of that. Amazing. Well, shall we talk about our Trailblazers of the Week?
Hayley: Yes. You go for it, queen.
Amy: I will go for it. My Trailblazers of the Week this week are Joy Huerta, who's the composer of Real Women Have Curves on Broadway and the entire cast, crew, and creative team of that show. 'Cause I had the privilege of seeing it this weekend, and it was amazing. I loved the celebration of womanhood and girlhood. Hayley, you need to see this show, because it speaks girlhood and I know that that is your language.
It was a beautiful celebration of womanhood and a delving into issues that are super relevant and resonant today. And a celebration of women's bodies - all kinds of bodies - and women's realities - all kinds of realities. And I just thought it was so gloriously done and exactly the injection of womanhood into my veins that I needed this weekend. So props to everyone involved with Real Women Have Curves on Broadway. If you haven't already, go! Run! Go to see it. Go enjoy it. That's me.
Hayley: Love it.
Amy: Who is your Trailblazer of the Week this week, Hayley?
Hayley: My Trailblazer of the Week this week is Nikki Lynette. She is a composer and creator of the musical Get Out Alive, which was at the NAMT Festival a couple years ago. She is a fierce mental health advocate and activist and really dives deep into mental health in her musicals and in her work in general.
I think it's really awesome how Nikki advocates for mental health in her work and speaks to the experiences, specifically, of Black women. I think that the show Get Out Alive is fantastic. And I'm hoping that you're gonna get to hear more about it soon. It seems to be picking up steam right now. Nikki's a wonderful human and a great role model, and if you don't know her work already, it would be a really good thing to do this week to check it out.
Amy: Cool. There's your personal invitation, listeners. You have your to-do list.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: Fabulous! Well, I wanna hype you up today, Hayley. I wanna hype you up, 'cause oh my gosh, we just had such an amazing retreat this weekend. And I always love, love, love being able to be in space with you and being able to take focused time for this project. And - such is the nature of getting people together in a space - but like, the energy, the vibes at times were not what we were expecting. And the way that we came together as a team and just kind of rolled with it and made it work for us and worked with the energy we had and said, “No, patriarchy, we are not going to prioritize capitalism and productivity over our personal well-being. Instead, we are gonna hold space for each other and hold the space for this project that it deserves.” And I so appreciate you doing that with me. You're such a wonderful collaborator, and it's such a joy to work on this project with you.
Hayley: Aw, thanks. Well, I wanna hype you up today, Amy, because listeners, you may not know this, but while I was away working on Life After, Amy was spearheading this whole project by herself.
Amy: With our amazing team, let's not forget!
Hayley: That’s what I was gonna say. Yeah. Shout out to our fantastic team for all of their support of her as well. But I want to specifically shout out the work that you were doing while I was away to keep this machine going, to keep the love alive, and to keep us moving forward in the direction we wanna go, to truly make the change that we wanna see with this project. I'm so grateful for you. So thank you Amy, and thank you to our amazing team for all of that. That's me hypin’ ya up today 'cause you rock.
Amy: Yay! Thank you, Hayley. Thank you, team. We love you, Team Women & Theatre! All right.
Hayley/Amy: And we love you, listeners!
Hayley: Jinx!
Amy: Haha, well, we do. Thanks for listening to this amazing interview.
Hayley: Yeah, we'll see you soon. Bye!
Amy: All right, bye!
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews! If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show was written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
